SANE Works just dropping the NuVo Initiative.
Vic Biorseth, http://www.Thinking-Catholic-Strategic-Center.com
I first discovered it after the 10th essay had been published, and immediately called it into question. The dialogue continued through two more NuVo (Null Vote Initiative) essays, each of which submitted nothing new, just elaboration and restatement of earlier premises and arguments. Throughout all of these dialogues I have sought to find out exactly how SANE expected to remain true to the SANE mission statement, and, simultaneously, get American citizens to not vote anymore, without violating their published mission statement. At the outset, I didn’t think it could be done, and so I expected something more to be forthcoming from that quarter.
Each time I asked for either an explanation of how our original Republic would be restored without any of us ever voting again, or, a description of the system of government that would replace it after we all stopped voting, all I got in response was a list of action items. No explanation; no description; just action items. Ostensibly, these were to take the place of voting somehow. All seemed aimed at fragmenting or further Balkanizing us rather than doing anything really constructive.
And some of the action items presented by SANE aficionados were just plain silly. “Grassroots” political agitation by people who no longer vote and therefore have no true government representation or any voted-in government representatives. Working toward Constitutional Amendments, even, while demonizing all voting, which must include even the voting of government representatives, who would be representatives of other people anyway, the ones who voted for them. “Living right” and working to re-establish American People-hood in little communes or collectives before even considering returning to the voting place. Pipe-dream notions of jabber-jawing fellow Americans back into a national People-Hood and then somehow getting back into the game.
Just craziness. Like, there would be some easily recognized event, and, Poof, we would all be a re-constituted American People, we would all know it at the same time, and America would have achieved perfection. Now, it looks like, they would simply rather not talk about it any more.
At this point, I think enough time has gone by for a safe assumption that they would just like this issue to quietly be forgotten, and just die of its own accord from lack of attention. Way back when I wrote the American National Existence article I stated my growing suspicion that there was an ulterior and probably Leftist motive behind the many, many anti-Democracy cartoons, editorials, essays and articles at SANE, at subtle hints at the future value of disenfranchising some of us, and that, their site mission statement notwithstanding, the NuVo Initiative, if ever fully and completely adopted by all, could only destroy America and eliminate representative government.
I have yet to see anything concrete from the SANE site or from any of the SANE followers to change that viewpoint. The 12th essay in the series came out, and, guess what, it was just a brief rehash of all the other ones, with no real-world path to re-establish the American Republic, in any form, let alone the original form, and another insistence on the "impossibility" of Democracy. I rest my case. So, I’ve copied the now old and (I hope) now dead dialogue from the 12th essay here for future reference. Until it quietly disappears some day from the SANE site, it’s still available at the link below; you can go there and page down to comments after essay number 12 to see the original source of the following comments.
NuVo Number 12
Following is the portion of the discussion generated from that essay.
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, January 25, 2007, 06:28 PM
Subject: How do we get back home again?
Comments:
All of that is quite logical, and beautifully explained.
But what I’m still waiting for is precisely how, and by what mechanism, and by what authority, you envision us, as a nation,
rejecting democracy and party rule
while somehow, and simultaneously, returning to our original constitutional republic, with a vibrant and real federalism at work, providing for an Executive that can execute its mandate to lead the country, a legislature limited to legislating and to its other enumerated powers, and a court system fully reined in to adjudicate facts before the law and not to legislate by judicial fiat
as you intend in your Mission Statement, and all without anybody ever voting. What is the practical, real-world result of nobody every voting again to be?
Do you have any particular dictator in mind yet?
Regards,
Vic
From: richard olszewski
Date: Mon, January 29, 2007, 09:40 AM
Subject: Let the left-wing do all the voting
Comments:
I must add my agreement with Mr. Biorseth's remarks. What indeed is the practical, real-world result of nobody every voting again to be?
Actually, I don't believe that no one will be voting. I'm sure that the left-wing will gladly take up the slack that the conservatives will have left behind by dropping out of the electoral process.
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Mon, January 29, 2007, 12:46 PM
Subject: missing the point
Comments:
Vic and Richard are missing the real point here. If you understand the point of SANE as I have these past months then you know that the WHOLE point of the Science/Democracy reciprocal is to reduce speech to nonsense -- either scientific talk, which is just counting things, or "debate" between equally uncertain opinions. This is what we do when we vote. We argue, yell, scream, call each other names, but at the end of the day, when we vote on EVERYTHING including our very existence we are accepting the rules of the Democracy game: there is no truth of existence other than science and democracy (which is no truth).
So where does voting get you? Now, stop and look around you. Listen to people "debating"/"speaking" to one another: "That's your opinion; everyone's entitled to one." And this is the answer whether you are speaking about national existence, abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, pedophilia, you name it.
Why is your life and your very existence bound by voting? Live good and live true! Is that not enough of an action item?
Per SANE, the only real action item would be the dismemberment of science. Since no one is voting on that issue, there is really nothing to vote on.
During the run up to the last election, the Republican Kool Aid drinkers told us that if the Dems won in Congress the world would end. It didn't. It just is continuing the same spiral downward.
What would have happened if all conservatives or even just all religious conservatives OPTED out?!? I suggest it would have made the heavens shake. What if ALL religious conservatives turned their backs on "democracy" and took their children out of public schools in favor of home schooling or private parochial schools? What would happen if religious conservatives moved away from the big cities to live in communities that guarded the Truths they know to exist?
I say the NuVo Initiative is a call for a NON VIOLENT REVOLUTION!
As a Catholic, I must say, we Catholics are not much better as a lot than the Jews. The few of us who haven't turned our back on a faithful life need to turn our backs on the infidelities of science and democracy.
J. McKinney
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Mon, January 29, 2007, 05:32 PM
Subject: It's the same old same old ...
Comments:
Mike:
This is the real world. A real world revolution needs a real world goal and target. If you are merely revolting against the existing basis of order then your true goal is anarchy, chaos, and the absence of order. You (and I, and we) are sitting on the very branch you are sawing off.
Obviously, you despise our Republic. But when you eliminate it, along with all rule of law and all order, the predictable result is that either the luckiest or the most ruthless among us will emerge on top. The most ruthless among us most likely appreciate your quicker path to chaos.
So the question remains: Do you have any preferred dictator in mind yet, or are you happy to just speed the process along to find out who ultimately winds up on top?
Regards,
Vic
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Mon, January 29, 2007, 06:24 PM
Subject: despise our Republic?
Comments:
Vic:
Your statement that "obviously, [I] despise our Republic" is off the charts and wholly uncalled for. Where do you get off saying such a thing? I love this country and am a patriotic American. If this country could return to the constitutional Republic we once were at the founding I'd be content enough.
But I do live in the REAL world. What world do you live in? With Reagan and Gingrinch and all the conservative revolution of the 80s and early 90s can you not see a direct line downward? The Reagan years, not all that good for conservatives, was but a spike in the opposite direction. The trend is clear. Now, after all these years of "debate" and "voting", what do you have?
What SANE seems to be saying makes quite good sense to me. What we need do is begin to get Americans to be American again. That doesn't happen by embracing the tactic of the left: more "debate" over uncertainties and "voting" over untruths.
More, where do you derive the notion that I or SANE would scuttle the Constitution? If we could eliminate all of the amendments after the 10th, we'd be on the right path. But OUR constitutional republic as founded did not accept the notion that VOTING was essential for national expression. Voting for white men usually property owners of the Christian faith was important but much else contributed to make this country great.
Mike
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Tue, January 30, 2007, 08:17 AM
Subject: Loving our Republic to death?
Comments:
Mike:
Please forgive my mistaken observation; perhaps you do not despise our Republic. But with the course you have chosen, and encouraged others to choose, you must agree that you have a very funny way of showing it.
And, I didn’t “derive” the notion that you and/or SANE would scuttle the Constitution; you and SANE have clearly stated it. For example, I refer you to Article I Section 2, which, among other parts, you do indeed seek to scuttle.
Let us not look so much at what SANE “seems to be saying” and more at the real-world consequences of real-world actions. You and SANE are encouraging everyone to not vote any more. You seem to think that that, in and of itself, will somehow restore us to our original Constitution and the first 10 Amendments.
How so?
I disagree, and think that it will lead to the end of our Constitution, our government, and America, as we know it. And so I still wonder, do you have any particular dictator in mind yet, or will you just continue to cut down what we now have, watch it fall, and then settle for a role of the dice?
Regards,
Vic
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 07:10 AM
Subject: If all speech is meaningless ...
Comments:
Mike: Or, Anyone:
The silence around here is quite deafening.
And the absolute no-comment silence regarding my long ago submitted yet unpublished and un-remarked article speaks volumes.
Could it be that the perfect logic and eloquent rhetoric describing how all speech is meaningless has now moved into the real, practical world, so that everyone with any brains at all has now permanently shut their mouths and laid down their pens?
Is there anyone out there?
Regards,
Vic
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 08:54 AM
Subject: Dear Vic
Comments:
The silence you hear at least from me, I can't speak for the rest of the NuVo afficianados, goes to the heart of why you continue to struggle with NuVo.
Vic, you appear to be a good man and Catholic. I won't just myself on the first score but we share the latter.
But the whole point of NuVo as I understand it is that if you make this a "debate" between opposing "beliefs", which is what you are effectively doing, you have adopted quite well the science-democracy reciprocal.
You first rather callously accused me of wanting to destroy our constitutional republic. Then you backed off of that and accused me of wanting to destroy the const. by pointing us to the clause for the election of representatives. All of this I can only suppose because I would, as NuVo has suggested, withhold my vote.
But you want to fight fire by pouring gasoline on it. What else is there to say to you? Let's try again.
This country WAS a constitutional republic. It has lost that character and has become without exception an Open Society democracy. Even where some vestige of the former remains, it is absolutely overwhelmed by the latter.
What does voting do? All you can do is argue competing "beliefs". If you want to do something, work to radically amend the constitution BACK to what it was at our founding. But you know that is impractical. Forget the issue of slavery. That is one of the things that got us into this mess. Just look at the Commerce Clause, the 14th Amendment and how it has swallowed most of the first 10 amendments so that we treat the states like the national government and vice versa. We've lost our federal system and with Marbury v Madison and SCt review we've lost any semblance of the Separation of Powers since the Court trumps all.
And you want to stand toe to toe with these people and "debate" which is the same as voting because the underlying premise is that certainty can only be found in the incoherent speech of mathematical physics or the incoherent speech of those idiots who say that everything but mathematical science is mere belief and wholly uncertain.
So, supposed you convince 51% of the people to stop illegal immigration tomorrow. The day after they will change their minds.
Now, you ask sarcastically for a dictator. You have, in your ridicule, certainly hit on something. Look at the 22nd amendment to the constitution and think about how that has destroyed our ability to even fight on their terms.
But if you don't understand that there are many many ways to resist the direction this country is going (SANE calls it the Redirection) and none of those include voting, and in fact would negate voting as incoherent speech, what more can be said?
Be a good Catholic. Raise and educate your children outside the culture of the open society. Teach them what we have learned here. Agitate in civil ways by establishing religious conservative communities in addition to schools, recreation, libraries, higher institutions of learning. The Orthodox Jews seem to take that approach and more and more the Evangelicals are doing so. We Catholics are actually disintegrating with all of the scandals and bankruptcies we face and the long-standing turn toward “rights” and “universalism”. The Catholic community is hardly a community any more. And, like the Jews, we have the Leftist crowd on the one hand which seems to predominate and the "fanatics" like me on the other.
Vic, not every "comment" is worth a reply especially when the comments just repeat themselves. I am not privy to any unpublished article since I just visit here as you do but if it reads like your comments of late then I certainly understand why it was not published. You make no argument but “we must do something!” But what you suggest to do is precisely that which guarantees you have lost the ground which will be your salvation. How do you debate or vote with people who consider all speech (and that is what voting is) as merely matter moving aimlessly in space. This is the modern disease where nothing is True and everything is uncertain to be endlessly debated and voted upon by every Tom, Dick, and Jane that can raise a hand.
You have asked for action items. I have given you some. Now take those up. But don’t expect me to respond again to you cry, “but we must do something” and “but we live in the real world”. I would argue rather persuasively as SANE’s NuVo has time and time again that those who think voting is the answer are the ones living in a dream world. And the dream is an actual nightmare.
Be well.
Mike
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 10:28 AM
Subject: To Mr. McKinney
Comments:
Mike:
There is a major difference – a wall of separation if you will – between logical discussion of ideas on the one side, and actual actions (and consequences) on the other. The logic underlying Science/Democracy Reciprocal and the Redirection it points to is impeccable. In fact, I would describe it as brilliant, in as much as a man of my low degree might be capable of judging brilliance. It’s so good, from my point of view, that it frankly scares the Hell out of me.
That being said, I submit for you consideration the proposition that, no matter how clear and demonstrably correct any logical proposition may be, there is and can be no such thing any purely logical accurate predictor of the future behavior of even one human being, let alone any large population of them.
The Science/Democracy Reciprocal and the Redirection logically concludes that a One World governance or government or state is the inevitable and unstoppable doom of America and all of Western Civilization, through an increasingly Open Society fed by voting. While I must accept the reasoning behind it, I do not accept this inevitability. Despair and hopelessness is against my religion.
Now, we could pack up our guns and supplies and take to the hills. Or, we could, to some degree, retreat or submerge into an orthodox Catholic sub-culture, in imitation of the Lefebvre-ites or the Amish or the Hassidic Jews, and we could do all the action things you suggest that we should do. But the fact remains that our form of government is driven by the vote, and when nobody votes, all your other actions are just whistling in the wind.
Nobody voting will lead to exactly what the proponents of NuVo seek to oppose, but it will do it quicker. There ain’t no Utopia. There ain’t no easy way. There ain’t no purely logical solution. SANE is quite correct in what it describes; however, NuVo, universally adopted, can only lead to an end of America as we know it, the Founders knew it, the wider world and history have known it, dictionaries define it, encyclopedias describe it, and as hordes of foreigners seeking to come here think it to be.
What, exactly, would be the result of nobody on Earth ever voting again?
Regards,
Vic
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 10:56 AM
Subject: doing something
Comments:
Vic: good. we've made some progress.
But, if we start with the same premise, that voting/speech, is the weapon and basis of all of the Open Society because it is meaningless and incoherent, because it is either science or uncertain dribble, then while you and I both want to do something to save our nation and people, voting at least now is not the thing to do.
I would suggest that if all good minded people in fact took up the NuVo cause, as a turning away from the Redirection, NOT as merely an abdication -- for NuVo is precisely NOT abdication -- we would move this country in a revolutionary way.
As it is there is a move here underway now to go the way Europe has gone to even outlaw a statement that "homosexuality is evil" or that "Islam is an evil religion" on the basis that that can only be "hate speech" because it has no connection to truth.
In this context, there is no "debating" these people. We need to find as many likeminded men and women and live according to the Truth of Existence. That itself will be shocking to those who might be shocked to their senses.
Also, the science-democracy reciprocal is the key. If people understand that properly, as you seem to, there can be no question that voting in a rigged system is worse than futile; it gives aid and comfort to the enemy. It might make you feel better but it is harmful.
I would also not be nearly as cynical as you seem to be about the proper effect of good men living well.
Moreover, do you not see the pattern this country has taken as men get into the voting game? We've merely accelerated the decline. One might even argue that Reagan's push back just brought a bigger swing the other way during the eight years of Clinton. Why would that be? Because Reagan and the Gingrich Republicans buy whole hog into the science-democracy reciprocal. Granted, they are conservative-limited government types, but deep down they accept what ultimately comes to destroy this country and the West.
If you must, let's start a constitutional amendment drive. Let's unwind 200 years of constitutional abuse. Start with the commerce clause, the 14th amendment, the 17th amendment, and the 22nd amendment. if you feel you must be active in the political arena, that would be the only arena that even begins to make sense.
Mike
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 10:57 AM
Subject: To Mr. Olszewski
Comments:
Richard:
You are quite correct in that the Left would “take up the slack” and win more elections due to all the NuVo-ites abandoning the field. They would certainly win more elections. But note that the ultimate unspoken goal of the Left is a One World State or Global Village anyway. That’s what they want.
Regards,
Vic
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 11:14 AM
Subject: Constitutional Amendment Drive
Comments:
Mike:
I like the idea of the Constitutional Amendment Drive. But, by what mechanism are we to amend the Constitution? Is it to involve voting? Or would someone just dictate what’s to be amended?
Regards,
Vic
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 11:38 AM
Subject: good point
Comments:
Vic: your point of course points up the problem with even this idea. The bottom line is there are two approaches mentioned in the constitution to amendment and each of these have two options:
The Constitution, then, spells out four paths for an amendment:
[1] Proposal by convention of states (2/3 of the state legislatures), ratification by state conventions (3/4 of the states) (never used)
[2] Proposal by convention of states (2/3), ratification by state legislatures (3/4)(never used)
[3] Proposal by Congress, ratification by state conventions (used once)
[4] Proposal by Congress, ratification by state legislatures (used all other times)
We will never get Congress or any Open Society representative body to propose such an amendment. So what to do? All good religious conservatives should reinvoke our federal system. We should all move to the Red States. Abandon the Blue States to the Elite. Push our state legislatures (recall we've Null Voted in all national elections) to call for a convention to return to the original constitution. And we start with my earlier proposal.
That is enough work for a lifetime. But most importantly, the motto must be science-democracy is our death.
I'd get behind this kind of grass roots movement among the religious conservatives. But this means that the leaders of the religious conservatives must come to see what you and I have seen demonstrated here. That is why I suppose SANE begins with its off-campus university seminar program. Now that is where all of our energy ought to be. To help get this program funded and started.
Vic, I'll race you to the check book!
Mike
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 11:49 AM
Subject: To Mike
Comments:
Mike:
Regarding your earlier statement “ … voting at least now is not the thing to do” (emphasis added) indicates that, for you, NuVo is not a permanent solution. If not now, when?
Also, I wonder if you share the queasy feeling I have that the whole, sole purpose of the NuVo Initiative is to get people like us publicly debating it. If that turns out to be the case, I will be very upset, because I think a lot of people take this very seriously.
I certainly do.
Regards,
Vic
From: Thomas Mann
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 12:13 PM
Subject: my two cents worth
Comments:
Gentlemen:
I think the answer about the Null Vote longevity is as long as the Redirection holds. And it seems to me we will know quite clearly when it begins to give up its grip.
On the seriousness of it and "debating", I would think that the whole purpose is not "debating" it. That is what the Elite spend their time doing.
Nuvo is the essence of experiencing the truth of existence. But Vic, you've asked over and over for a To Do item. Mike M. has given that to you. But so has NuVo. We have the seminar program so our young religious conservative leaders can understand what the Elite are preaching at the university. We should be organizing ourselves in communities. If you go at this "digitally" as "solitary beings" then once again we are playing by the reciprocal's rules. We are men. We live in political societies which make distinctions based on political order. Since the US does not, we can in our own smaller community level way do so.
What we need are men of action now, not debaters and commenters. We need people to get behind this SANE proposal to go after the Elite at the university. If we can't protect our young religious people from this influence you can bet there will be no hope. Evangelicals have begun the process of creating such communities.
We need a SANE community and political order.
Vic, if we are correct and living as we ought to, much will affect and effect much else and you'll be surprised what might be possible. But let's start. We ought to set our goal to raise whatever funds are necessary for this seminar.
In this I agree with Mike M. 100%!!!!
TM
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 12:18 PM
Subject: we're moving
Comments:
Here, Here!!! TM is in.
That makes two and if Vic is in that makes 3.
Query to SANE: you haven't included the budget for the SANE seminars in the posting. How much is needed? To do this seriously, with staff, travel, material etc. across the country you'd need at least $500K just for the first programs. That is a guess so let's get a SANE Member Fund Raising Drive going.
Vic, I suggest you as the Chair. I travel to much to be much good logistically but I'll help every other way I can.
M
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 01:33 PM
Subject: Re "We're Moving"
Comments:
Gentlemen:
At the current time, our finances are such as to preclude moving our home, attending seminars or even just reaching for the checkbook. I’m in the midst of getting a new business up, running and on a paying basis, and the lion’s share of my attention needs to be concentrated on that endeavor. If circumstances were different, I would not hesitate to be the Chairman, but I think I might fail miserably as a Chair unless the sitter was very small. At any rate, I must keep the wolf away from the door.
Mike, I wonder if you might have missed my earlier comment, that “ … NuVo, universally adopted, can only lead to an end of America as we know it, the Founders knew it, the wider world and history have known it, dictionaries define it, encyclopedias describe it, and as hordes of foreigners seeking to come here think it to be.”
If NuVo is just a temporary thing, then it is a very dangerous temporary tactic. Once you switch people off from voting, however successful that endeavor might be, there exists no certain “on switch” to get them all back, with reinforcements, after losing some really big-time elections. Leftist success only breeds more Leftist success. They mean to change things so they can take charge. And their ultimate goal is exactly what NuVo seeks to avoid: the One World State.
I really do have to get back to work now.
Regards,
Vic
From: Thomas Mann
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 01:49 PM
Subject: are we serious?
Comments:
Vic: it would seem that if we are serious, we ought to behave seriously.
The America "as you know it"? Which America do you know? The one that embraces science-democracy? The one that embraced universal franchise? The one that democratized the Senate and the Presidency? The one that long ago turned over the constitution to the SCt? The one that abdicated federalism in the name of the commerce clause and "civil rights"?
You are not being consistent at all. We are in a bad way. What was is no more.
Also, you've demanded action items. A whole bunch of us have said quite persuasively that voting is the problem. You then demanded some specific action items. We came up with some. Now you say your too busy? Ok, so don't be the Chair. But if men like you are not willing to work to resist the Redirection outside of your close family and friends, who will?
This is disheartening. If we all have been reduced to people whose political life and order is reduced to "debating" on website comments, we might also be very much a part of the Redirection.
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 03:05 PM
Subject: Quite Seriously, and Quite Consistently
Comments:
Thomas:
Apparently you didn’t read it either. And you need to read it again. The one the Founders knew was included in the statement. Are you going to tell me that a universal application of NuVo is going to bring back the Republic our Founders knew?
All of your action items are good, worthy, commendable actions, but they still abandon the working election process to bad guys, who can and will undo everything you value just as soon as they assume the power you surrender to them.
Mike, am I to assume from your 11:38 AM post that you might vote in local elections, but not national ones, or am I interpreting too much into your remarks?
Thomas, I don’t know if you guys work for a living or not, but I do. Granted, this is very important; but so is earning a living. Now I really do have to do other stuff.
Regards,
Vic
From: Marty Y
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 03:50 PM
Subject: The const and voting
Comments:
Vic: what is this thing you have with voting? Voting has gotten us into this mess. When, prior to the Civil War, all voting was done essentially by a given People, a People with a shared world view and understanding of political order, voting was fine. But when you redefine the American People from white, male, Christians, mostly land owners to anyone and everyone with citizenship and then you make things worse by allowing anyone and everyone to come in and then you make things worse by granting amnesty to illegals.
Under Reagan, we had our first real illegal alien amnesty program about which Reagan said: "We have consistently supported a legalization program which is both generous to the alien and fair to the countless thousands of people throughout the world who seek legally to come to America. The legalization provisions in this act will go far to improve the lives of a class of individuals who now must hide in the shadows, without access to many of the benefits of a free and open society. Very soon many of these men and women will be able to step into the sunlight and, ultimately, if they choose, they may become Americans." The conservatives precious Ronald Reagan did not understand the most rudimentary aspect of national existence. Why? Because he too was gripped by the Redirection. But if everybody is a potential citizen, what is America if not the world?
People don't see this and yet now Vic you worry about getting your vote in? You've lost the vote. First get this country back to An American People not some microcosm of world state democracy bursting at the seams and ready to go One World and then we can speak about voting.
From: Mike McKinney
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 03:53 PM
Subject: Ok, I'll vote
Comments:
I vote for Marty. Well said. Reagan was very very good in many things and very very bad in others. That of course is one of the reasons why he was so popular, aside from his charm, upbeat optimism, and communication skills. He understood the importance of the divine and he understood the importance of limited government and personal responsibility, but these are all general conservative themes. But when it came right down to it, he bought into the universalism of America which is just another way of saying the World State.
From: Thomas Mann
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 03:55 PM
Subject: I'm with you
Comments:
I second that and cast my vote with Marty. There. We've voted. Everyone feel better?
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 05:26 PM
Subject: On Your Happy Vote
Comments:
Gentlemen:
No, I don’t feel better. And I keep getting drawn back here against my will. So, let me see if I’ve got it straight. Our Action Items:
- Stop voting.
- Live a good Catholic (Protestant, Jewish) life.
- Move to a Red State and form or join a like-mined enclave.
- Pull our kids out of government schools, and teach them about this whole terrible conundrum and the Redirection.
- Agitate at the grass-roots level, perhaps even pushing for State or lower level legislation.
- Join in on SANE seminars and similar events to spread the new gospel.
But we are to do all these things while the sole legitimate process of determining who is to govern us all goes on above our heads. Right?
I submit that it might be equally effective to go sit in some corner and just suck our thumbs. If you give up the vote, just what makes you think you will ever get it back again? Do you think it was and is free?
Your so-far purely rhetorical non-violent revolution, if it really gets off the ground, could eventually be forced to turn violent, in a heartbeat. It took a lot of blood to get the vote, and it’s a much, much easier thing to lose than to win.
If you want to “first get this country back to an American people” before worrying about voting, your Red-State, Live-right, Educational Enclave tasks to do that amount to little more than just another silly utopian pipe dream. We have one and only one legitimate government here, and dropping out of the process doesn’t help it. All the things you say to do are great, and needed. But the whole notion of the citizen being sovereign rests, exclusively, on his ability to vote, which you are putting in jeopardy. The election process will not stop and wait for you; it will go on without you, and it will leave you in the dust.
And it might leave me, and the rest of us, in the dust, too. But I won’t go down easy.
Regards,
Vic
From: Thomas Mann
Date: Thu, February 01, 2007, 11:04 PM
Subject: so vote
Comments:
Vic: So vote! For goodness sakes, vote and keep voting. You've still got most of it right. But at some point you really must ask yourself: to what end?
As to loosing your right to vote, don't fret that. You've lost it effectively now because they give it away to every tom, dick and martino.
You've certainly convinced us that you're never going to stop voting. So you vote for us. In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out where I can find a good Baptist Evangelical community with private schools to move to. And, while I'm at it, I'm going to be the first to sign up for these seminars at SANE.
And, when I am done with that, I might start that grass roots campaign you mention but not for an amendment. To unmask the perniciousness of science.
TM
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Fri, February 02, 2007, 09:24 AM
Subject: Ho hum, heavy sigh, and here we go again.
Comments:
Gentlemen:
I think I’ve been quite consistent in my position, ever since I “got it” some time back, with the aid of some of you, and in particular Mr. Yerushalmi’s dissertation right here. But, despite this clear consistency, it seems I am periodically misinterpreted and my statements misconstrued, or perhaps misread, to where the treatment of my remarks ranges from “welcome to the club” to “so go vote and leave us alone,” and with not too much wiggle room between those two extremes. Let me try to be clear.
First, what I accept:
The theory surrounding and describing the Science/Democracy Reciprocal, the Redirection, and the voting-leads-to-an-increasingly Open Society threat. The reasoning is quite tight, and even beautiful, if frightening, in its clarity. It points out a very real threat and danger to America, and even to all orderly society, that needs to be widely recognized and dealt with.
That being said, it is not a crystal ball and it cannot accurately forecast the future. In a similar manner, past voting results, statistics and trend-lines “prove” nothing whatsoever about the future. Statistics and trends can only “prove” the past and the present, and point to a possible but uncertain future trend. A probability, perhaps, but not ever a certainty.
Non-idiot human behavior, at the individual level and more so at the group level, is increasingly unpredictable over time. There are simply too many random external and internal physical and psychological factors involved for anyone to predict what any person or any people will do (or how they might vote) over time with any accuracy at all. Claiming you can do so is tantamount to the weatherman accurately predicting a specific temperature, precipitation, wind direction and force at a specific time at a specific place thirty days out. Or, Gore and friends accurately predicting global climate 10 years out.
Which leads me to what I do not accept:
The NuVo Initiative, basing itself on the Science/Democracy Reciprocal – Redirection theory, insists that it is certain - certain - that all voting will inevitably lead to the World State. That every vote is a wasted vote that only contributes to the problem, and thus, we have “already lost” the vote. That voting, in and of itself, is a bad thing that should be permanently done away with. That any time anyone votes, by that very action, they contribute to the movement to the World State.
Now, you cannot hold to this absolute certainty about voting and its relationship to the future without holding to other “absolute certainties” regarding the future, such as, to know with certainty:
- That the future voter is affected by the Redirection.
- How the future voter is affected by the Redirection.
- The primary motivational factors of the future voter.
- How the future voter will vote.
If you are absolutely certain of all these future things, and more, then you are right, no one should ever vote again, and our Constitution should be flushed. I submit that you do not and you cannot possibly know any of these things with any certainty at all. Nor can you be certain that all voting everywhere always and inevitably leads to the World State.
From my earliest discussions I have sought to find out precisely how SANE sought to return us, as near as possible, to our original Republic, most especially without using the vote, and have received no credible reply. From my earliest discussions I have sought to find out what governmental mechanism is to be a replacement for the NuVo-despised and demonized Democracy, and received no credible response at all. It seems to me that the most likely possible result of no one on Earth ever voting again is – guess what – the World State.
The only two possible chinks I have seen so far in the all-voting-is-always-evil NuVo armor have appeared in this particular discussion, and they are:
- That it might be possible to violate the NuVo anti-vote rule either
- at State or lower levels other than National;
- or, to allow elected Representatives (who no longer represent you if you do not vote) to violate the NuVo anti-vote rule in some sort of Constitutional Amendment effort.
- That after we change America back to being the Old Time America, not by voting, but by, essentially, “living right,” or maybe by some magic, then we might consider returning to the vote, maybe.
This ain’t some minor little debate, guys. What you do affects me, and all of us, and therefore I’m not going away. I’m not asking for action items, or how to behave, or how to be an activist. I’m looking for alternative forms of government after this one is gone. Or, realistic mechanisms for bringing the old one back. NuVo is intent on taking Democracy out of the picture, permanently. Since Democracy underlies Republicanism, I’m just asking one very simple question, and it is this: After you’ve killed off all Democracy and all voting everywhere,
What’s next?
Regards,
Vic
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Fri, February 02, 2007, 12:01 PM
Subject: Hypothetical Future Argument
Comments:
Gentlemen:
let’s play a little game. It is now ten years into the future, and you – the NuVo Initiative aficionado, hereinafter referred to as NuVo Guy, are having a gentlemanly discussion with – a Government Representative, supported by voters, hereinafter referred to as Govt Guy.
NuVo Guy: Well, things are looking better now due to our not voting, grass-roots activism and living right, and so we’re ready to return to the voting process in the next election.
Govt Guy: You voluntarily forfeited your right to vote ten years ago. Not only that, but you publicly encouraged many others to do the same. You no longer deserve the right to vote; you are unworthy of the right to vote. You are no longer legally allowed to vote. We passed a law about that awhile back.
NuVo Guy: I didn’t forfeit it; I just didn’t take advantage of it.
Govt Guy: Too bad. We have a law.
NuVo Guy: You’re a government Representative; can’t you do something for my cause?
Govt Guy: You voluntarily rejected your right to Representative Government ten years ago. Not only that, but you publicly encouraged many others to do the same. You no longer deserve Representative Government. You are unworthy of access to Representative Government. Our Court interpreted a new Constitutional Principle about that awhile back. You can only come to me for redress of grievances if you are an illegal alien.
NuVo Guy: So what am I to do?
Govt Guy: Shut up and get on the cattle car.
Regards,
Vic
From: Thomas Mann
Date: Fri, February 02, 2007, 02:08 PM
Subject: relax
Comments:
Vic: two things. [1] We are not Null Voting because it "leads" to something but because it IS the something. That something is the reciprocal. It stands for that as long as the American people are no longer a people but an open society of "citizens" who share civil and human rights with the world. [2] Now to you "game". You haven't noted that I and others here have said that if we are successful to turn away from the Redirection and turn back to Peoplehood, voting for representative government will find its expression as a constitutional mechanism toward representative government. But that means that we would as a People have rejected the idea that we vote on everything as method because there is no truth. It would mean that the Truth of Existence is experienced by a unique American People and the voting we be as it was originally.
You game fails and your consistent worry about "losing" the vote is a non sequitor because if we've lost the vote as Americans within an American national people it will mean the Elite have already moved to the World State stage. But assuming we have moved back to what makes us a People and we constitute a People, we'll be just fine. It is certainly possible that groups previously franchised will have lost the franchise but the American people as such will not have done so.
Voting itself as an act of representative government is not a bad thing UNLESS it is an expression of the reciprocal. If voting is limited to legitimate expressions of representative government within a unique and homogenous People, it is not necessarily a bad thing. One must be on guard of course that it be converted and perverted to what it is today. This is the inherent flaw in our own constitutional system as founded. If there hadn't been a flaw, we wouldn't be where we are today. Granted, no political order is a perfect shield against a fall from order; men are men. Especially given the domination science has in the world of men's affairs. But if we get to where we need to get, and men experience the Truth of Existence within their political order, voting within that context as a limited affair for representatives representing a unique and particular people is more akin to the system our founders established than anything that exists today.
TM
From: Vic Biorseth
Date: Fri, February 02, 2007, 03:23 PM
Subject: Contact!
Comments:
Thomas:
Now we’re getting somewhere. I’m not sure NuVo would agree with what you just said, but it’s the first time I’ve heard from this quarter a clear statement that any citizen voting at all might have an American future, shaky though it may be.
… if we are successful to turn away from the Redirection and turn back to Peoplehood, voting for representative government will find its expression as a constitutional mechanism toward representative government. But that means that we would as a People have rejected the idea that we vote on everything as method because there is no truth. It would mean that the Truth of Existence is experienced by a unique American People and the voting we be as it was originally.
But these words immediately raises three questions:
- How to do that in enough numbers and in time to get back in the game while it still exists. No doubt you could do it in your own little religious enclave, but then,
- How are you going to know when enough enclaves have succeeded to the level required to reconstitute The American People? By unofficial poll, or by some sort of (shudder!) vote?
- What will be the secret signal for everyone to rise up and return to the polls, and, most importantly, what will be the American political state of affairs by that time?
I’m greatly encouraged by an outright statement, however unofficial, that the NuVo Initiative might one day actually embrace Democracy, which means that our Republic actually has a chance of survival.
Voting itself as an act of representative government is not a bad thing UNLESS it is an expression of the reciprocal. If voting is limited to legitimate expressions of representative government within a unique and homogenous People, it is not necessarily a bad thing.
These words, of course, raise some more questions. Who, in any enclave, determines what constitutes a unique and homogenous People? What if that determination doesn’t agree with the determination of the enclave next door, or across the State, or across the Nation? Is it not possible that all these individually homogenous enclaves might not be collectively homogenous, and might constitute yet another form of Balkanization of Americans?
… and men experience the Truth of Existence within their political order, voting within that context as a limited affair for representatives representing a unique and particular people is more akin to the system our founders established than anything that exists today.
Nothing could be more desirable. It’s getting there that’s the rub.
Perfection is not of this world but the next. The original system was not perfect. The existing system is not perfect. Your proposed system will not be perfect. The future system, whatever it is, will not be perfect. My argument is that we should work within the sole legitimate Representative system we are presented with, what was handed on to us, and we should strive to hand it on in a better form. And, as we shall probably soon see, I strongly suspect that NuVo just flat out opposes Democracy, period.
Regards,
Vic
From: David Wyatt
Date: Thu, February 08, 2007, 01:53 PM
Subject: NuVo #12
Comments:
Gentlemen,
Take heart! You are not Alone!
This One was closely following your discussion. How refreshing to know someone has a working knowledge of Federalist #10. It makes One appreciate the effort and thought of the Founding Fathers.
In that line, those who would subvert the system for their own ends have done so, one need only to look around.
To recognize that there is a problem (understatement) speaks much of Us, and is the first step in finding a solution. You are commended for that.
This One was also drawn to this site for its insistence on civility and frank discussion of the issues at hand.
Be Secure in Your State! There are Others!
Dave
And that's where it ended.
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