Global Consensual Fraud.Vic Biorseth, Friday, November 27, 2009 A global consensual fraud is one in which just about everybody is involved. Scientists, politicians, educators, academics, publishers, journalists, commentators, the intellectual elites, entertainers, the movie industry, celebrities – the list is endless. The success, and the very existence of colossal world-wide frauds proves that science has, in general, degenerated into a simple matter of achieving scientific consensus, and that the honorable scientific method is just about dead. Is the proposed scientific argument as stated true, or is it false? Let’s take a vote on it: the ayes have it; the argument is true. Case closed. We got ourselves a brand new Scientific Theory. Congratulations and drinks all around. I use the word fraud, because the word hoax implies something a little less damaging. A hoax is a deliberate attempt to trick someone into believing that something is true when it is not true. This applies to the magician’s bag of tricks, which are meant to be entertaining. It applies to boy scouts taking younger cub scouts out “snipe hunting” as a sort of right-of-passage, and fooling them. In future years, these cub scouts will be the older and wiser boy scouts guiding and hoaxing another generation of cub scouts. Similarly, the gentler word hoax might be applied to the scientific fact that fishermen never lie. It’s a code of honor, among fishermen – they never lie. Just like the scientific fact that no fish that ever got away was small. Fish that get off the hook or break the line are always very large. (I know this one to be true; I once lost a musky the size of a nuclear sub in Michigan’s Lake St. Clair. He’s still cruising out there somewhere.) The intent of the hoaxer here is to convince his companions that he is truly a great fisherman, but that he is just cursed with bad luck. He will often be heard emphatically stating with his right hand in the air something like “I swear, this time, you guys!”, and, perhaps, almost tearfully, “He was as big as the boat!”, sometimes followed by a stunned, big-eyed, incredulously intoned, “Don’t you guys believe me?” This sort of scientific fact is more of a hoax than a fraud, because there is no hidden motive behind it; it is simply intended to convince. The honest fisherman scientific fact is thus similar to the scientific fact that dropped jelly bread always lands jelly side down. We all know that even caught fish grow over time; it’s a scientific fact. There is a mathematical formula for it, but I forget the exact details. The growth of a caught fish over time is somehow proportional to the number of times the story is told. Anyhow, what we are talking about here is criminal fraud, and that is very different. Fraud: 1. Criminal deception. 2. Dishonest artifice or trick. 3. Imposter. Fraud, as used herein, is a purposeful and intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of inducing someone to voluntarily part with something of value, or to voluntarily surrender a legal right. Thus, fraud is not the same thing as the magician entertaining us, or the boy scout taking a cub scout snipe hunting, or fishermen swapping stories. It is more in tune with a poker player dealing from the bottom of the deck, or a salesman pitching snake oil, or an e-mail invitation to deposit some foreign check into your bank account and then write a check to someone after taking your cut. The hoaxer is out to fool you, but the fraud is out to get you. Most frauds are perpetrated or attempted by one or a few con (confidence) men who first gain your confidence to get you to drop your guard, and then fleece you in some way. I submit that no one in America is in a better position to perpetrate a fraud against you and me than the professional politician. So what is a global consensual fraud? Man induced global warming is a global consensual fraud. It was and is knowingly and purposefully perpetrated by a majority of scientists, politicians, educators, academics, publishers, broadcast networks, journalists, commentators, the intellectual elites, entertainers, the movie industry, celebrities – the list is endless. World leaders. The United Nations. It is world wide. The true purpose of this global consensual fraud is to induce free men to voluntarily surrender their private property and their legal rights, and to encourage a migration of political power from the people to the government. You haven’t seen any credible scientific evidence for the theory, because there isn’t any. There has been no serious peer review, because there is nothing serious to submit for peer review. This is purely science by consensus, and nothing more. The supporting list of scientists is longer than an opposing list of scientists, proving that most scientists today are nothing more than political whores, just like journalists. Whoever else may be involved up to his neck in the fraud, the real drivers of this and just about every other global consensual fraud are professional politicians. The reward they seek is power. Your power. A hacker, or a whistle-blower, we don’t yet know which, got into a Canadian server and got hold of a ton of e-mails back and forth between a bunch of TTRSTF who were working on the cutting edge of man-induced global warming “science.” These very damning e-mails were anonymously published in the public domain, and now the cat is out of the bag, so to speak. All or most of this private e-mail correspondence involved TTRSTF working in the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia in England. The now public e-mails show subterfuge, purposeful deception, falsified scientific evidence, ignored contradictory evidences, intent to keep all of this information from the public, destruction of evidence, and so forth. The details are all over the current news and I won’t go into them here. What I am reacting to is the how everyone seems to be surprised by these events. My personal reaction is, ho hum, heavy sigh and here we go again. The very notion of man-induced global warming defies simple common sense to the point of being just plain stupid. The scam is just so obvious; all you have to do is look at what the real ringleaders, meaning, the politicians, are saying about it to see the real intent here. The so-called scientists involved who are not downright sinister are just tag-along yes-men or useful-idiots, doing what they are told. There is no old fashioned science involved here, and there never was. It is purely political science. We talked about this particular global consensual fraud long ago, along with a whole bunch of other ones, way back in the old Eco-Nazi Front page, foremost among many other Thinking Catholic Website pages. Many people today are not particularly surprised that man-induced global-warming turns out to be a purposeful scientific fraud; they already instinctively knew that. But most of them seem to be convinced that this particular global consensual fraud is the biggest, costliest, most wide-spread, longest lasting purposeful fraud, with the biggest cast of cooperating perpetrators in history. It is none of those. There are bigger frauds, and more wide-spread ones, and longer lasting ones, and more costly ones, and ones that have caused many more human deaths. Man-induced global warming is just one global consensual fraud among the many. And it isn’t necessarily over yet; the “powers that be” should not be under-estimated, and we should all know that the whole fraud may be re-invigorated and re-instituted by the world elites, in spite of all of this released damning e-mail inside information. The battle, after all, is not for Truth, but for political Power. We are seeing public astonishment expressed by conservative commentators at the involvement real live scientists, and at the widespread involvement of the whole media, and less at the involvement of politicians and world-leaders, since their ulterior motives are so clear and obvious. But how could scientists do this, they ask; and how on earth could the media immediately and universally come to the public defense of the fraud, and seek to attack the motives of whoever released the information. Again, I am not surprised. The Vietnam War as reported was a global consensual fraud. I have been referring to the SLIMC and nearly the whole field of journalism as largely populated by professional liars, who are paid by their employers to lie, and I’ve been saying it ever since the Vietnam War. The whole Vietnam War, as reported by the media, was one, giant, global consensual fraud. The whole media played the same fraudulent tune, with Master Liar Walter Cronkite holding the baton, and the fraud went farther than merely “breaking the will of the people to resist” by motivating masses of American citizens to actually become anti-American. That war was lost in the streets of America, not on the battlefield, where not one single battle was lost. And that one global consensual fraud generated multiple generations of anti-American American citizens. The American SLIMC leads the way in perpetrating global consensual fraud for the purpose of advancing The Great Communist Lie in the minds of the people. The politician and the journalist are, most often, one and the same animal. I see no difference between any NY Times or CNN “journalist” and any office-holding member of the Marxocratic Party. And, of course, there are history’s Big Three global frauds, whom I refer to elsewhere as science’s Unholy Trinity – Darwin, Freud and Marx. The Piltdown Man fraud was a classic example of what we’re talking about here. It was a fraud of enormous world-wide scope, with breath-taking involvement of scientists, and an active cast of thousands of high-placed participants, over better than a 40-year span of time before it blew up. The whole thing was a lie from the start, all the participants knew it, and they all did their part to strengthen and magnify the lie. Evidence was falsified, contradictory evidence was suppressed, fraudulent text books were published, whole generations were knowingly falsely educated in the lie. The ends were seen to justify the means; what was at stake was the shaky standing of Darwin’s theory regarding the evolution of species, which had no real evidences of its own. Piltdown Man “proved” Darwinian theory, in the minds of the lowly hoi polloi. Every significant university in the world was involved. Every major museum in the world was involved. And there is no question about it today: it was a purposeful, very well orchestrated, global, highly publicized, scientific fraud, of epic proportions. The quasi-religion of Darwinism is a global consensual fraud that has been continually evolving, growing and gaining strength since November 24, 1859. It is an active scientific fraud that is still knowingly perpetrated on us by real scientists. The Darwinism page shows that there is no empirical evidence sustaining the so-called scientific theory of evolution. It is a belief system, pure and simple, because no real science has ever been applied to it. The “old school” theorists apply the Darwinian Fundamentalist theory of GESGEAEOT, tiny incremental steps of evolution leading, eventually, into new species. The more modern theorists apply the newer PEWAG theory involving mass mutation into whole new species during special geological moments. Neither theory has been or can be proven. No speciation of anything – microbes, insects, algae – anything has ever been accomplished in any laboratory. No speciation has ever even been observed by anyone, ever, including Darwin. There is no evidence of speciation in the massive, massive existing and still growing fossil record. You haven’t seen any credible scientific evidence for the theory, because there isn’t any. There has been no serious peer review, because there is nothing serious to submit for peer review. This is purely science by consensus, and nothing more. The supporting list of scientists is longer than an opposing list of scientists, proving that most scientists today are nothing more than political whores, just like journalists. That’s why I so often refer to them on this Website as TTRSTF This is a world-wide fraud. Formal education is steeped in it. Question any Darwinian dogma and the response will be SNRTACBT evolutionary theory is in question. Question the science behind it, and the response will be STNSEACPB that the scientists don’t know their subject better than us. I have published my own scientific argument refuting Darwin in the Refuting Darwin Webpage. It’s out there in the open for peer review. Refute my argument if you can; no one has so far. More than anything else, Darwinism is pseudo-sophisticated elitist fad. The quasi-religion of Freudianism is a global consensual fraud that has been continually evolving, growing and gaining strength since the 1890s. It is an active scientific fraud that is still knowingly perpetrated on us by real scientists. The Freudianism page shows that there is no empirical evidence sustaining the so-called scientific theory of the subconscious and infantile sexuality. It is a belief system, pure and simple, because no real science has ever been applied to it. Freud is probably the most quoted name in psychology today, and he is the founder of the field of psycho-analysis. All of Freud’s theories centered round the unconscious or “sub-conscious” human mind, promoting such nonsense as dream interpretation, recovery of “repressed” memories, hypnosis and other parlor tricks. He was a drug abuser who took sexual advantage of his patients. He proved that “memories” of events that had never occurred could be solidly imprinted in the minds of his patients. Noting that this was a very dangerous tool, he nevertheless continued, and Freudian psycho-therapy today continues, to “help” patients “remember” past events that they do not remember, and that may or may not have occurred. No sub-conscious or unconscious mind has ever been observed by anyone, including Freud, in all of history. You haven’t seen any credible scientific evidence for the theory, because there isn’t any. There has been no serious peer review, because there is nothing serious to submit for peer review. This is purely science by consensus, and nothing more. The supporting list of scientists is longer than an opposing list of scientists, proving that most scientists today are nothing more than political whores, just like journalists. That’s why I so often refer to them on this Website as TTRSTF This is a world-wide fraud. Formal education is steeped in it. Question any Freudian dogma and the response will be SNRTACBT repressed memory theory is in question. Question the science behind it, and the response will be STNSEACPB that the scientists don’t know their subject better than us. I have published my own scientific argument refuting Freud in the Refuting Freud Webpage. It’s out there in the open for peer review. Refute my argument if you can; no one has so far. More than anything else, Freudianism is pseudo-sophisticated elitist fad. The quasi-religion of Marxism is a global consensual fraud that has been continually evolving, growing and gaining strength since the 1840s. It is an active scientific fraud that is still knowingly perpetrated on us by real scientists. The Marxism page shows that there is no empirical evidence sustaining his so-called scientific theories describing economics, dialectic materialism, “inevitable” historical economic evolution or Communism. It is a belief system, pure and simple, because no real science has ever been applied to it. Marx is probably the most quoted name in social science today, and he co-authored of the Communist Manifesto. Marx demonized religion and free culture as ideologies of the Capitalist exploiters of the masses. He insisted on the inevitability of a natural historical progression from Capitalism through Socialism to Communist Utopia, but he felt that this naturally inevitable progression needed to be helped along a little with bloody revolution. None of Marx’s theories have ever been proved by any progression of history, or even by violent revolution. His “phases” are falsified by the historical record; see the Great Communist Lie page. American history refutes his theory, even before our formation as a nation and our Constitution. Long before Karl Marx and Communism, after the Mayflower Compact in 1620, our pilgrims developed a form of Socialism, in which they held all property in common, parceled out plots of land and housing in equal shares, shared equally in work, harvest, food, clothing, and everything. They were almost totally dependent upon the rare ships that came to re-supply them; the local Indians, while friendly were little better off than they were. After years of seeming famine and poverty, death by starvation, exposure and disease, with fewer than half of the population left alive, out of desperation, they changed the rules. Long before Adam Smith and Capitalism, they privatized all the plots of ground and houses. Each man was given his share and allowed to work it or not work it as he saw fit, and to prosper by his own labor. Instant economic success. Poverty was replaced with prosperity. Now, the ships began to come in greater numbers and frequency, not with charity and supplies, but with hordes of new pilgrims eager to share in the freedom and the potential for wealth. It was the same soil capable of producing the same food before and after the organizational change. The waters contained the same fish and the forests the same game, before and after. The pilgrims had the same ability to utilize available natural resources before and after. They were dieing before; they were becoming wealthy after, and exporting goods back to Europe. No successful Marxian economic organization progression has ever been observed by anyone, including Marx, in all of history. You haven’t seen any credible scientific evidence for Marx’s theory, because there isn’t any. There has been no serious peer review, because there is nothing serious to submit for peer review. This is purely science by consensus, and nothing more. The supporting list of scientists is longer than an opposing list of scientists, proving that most scientists today are nothing more than political whores, just like journalists. That’s why I so often refer to them on this Website as TTRSTF This is a world-wide fraud. Formal education is steeped in it. Question any Marxian dogma and the response will be SNRTACBT Marx’s theory is in question. Question the science behind it, and the response will be STNSEACPB that the scientists don’t know their subject better than us. I have published my own scientific argument refuting Marx in the Refuting Marx Webpage. It’s out there in the open for peer review. Refute my argument if you can; no one has so far. More than anything else, Marxism is pseudo-sophisticated elitist fad. The HIV=AIDS=DEATH Myth is a global consensual fraud. This one is a real killer. We may never know the numbers of people killed by AZT poisoning administered as “treatment” for AIDS, when all the patient had was an “infection” of the harmless HIV retro-virus. The names Kimberly Bergalis and Arthur Ash come to mind. There is no such thing as a plausible link between the HIV retro-virus and the AIDS syndrome. The two things have nothing to do with each other. HIV is perfectly harmless and has no symptoms, and therefore is not a disease of any kind. The Great HIV=AIDS=DEATH hoax is a continuing world-wide fraud since its birth in 1984, not by any scientific discovery, but by an official government pronouncement made by a politically appointed bureaucrat. See the link for the details. This is a fraud sponsored and fed by the Homo-Nazi Front and the now firmly ensconced and ever powerful AIDS Establishment. The purpose is to raise homosexual perversion to the level of victim-hood and even heroics in the eyes of the formerly misguided public. Untold billions of US dollars have been fraudulently collected as charity to fight HIV infection here and abroad, most notably in Africa. But here’s the thing: there is no valid empirical link between HIV and AIDS. Such a link cannot be shown. And “medicines” such as AZT are deadly bone-marrow toxins that will destroy immune systems and cause people to quickly waste away and die. Exactly as if they had AIDS. These are offered as irrefutable facts. Refute them if you can. Those of you who are familiar with this Website know that I could carry on in this manner almost indefinitely. I don’t know if it’s age or the facts as they are that make me such a curmudgeon. There are many such colossal world-wide frauds out there. The contents of this page were triggered by hearing more than one conservative commentator expressing surprise at the media reaction and at the lack of any science reaction for the newly revealed fraudulent status of the whole global warming theory. Nobody should be surprised here. The media, and science, and education, and show-biz, and publishing, and more, are all loaded down with political whores who outnumber the real professionals who have any honor left. If there are any significant numbers of honest scientists and honest journalists left out there who remain true to their craft, then they have a damned funny way of showing it. In the Garden, the serpent told the first lie. Did God tell you if you eat of the forbidden fruit you will die? You will not die. If you eat, you will know good from evil and you will be like gods. A statement that, if true, would make God a liar. Free will allowed temptation, and the conscious decision to eat of the forbidden fruit. This is how evil came into the world: via the lie. True love requires the possibility of true hate. It requires free will. God gave man free will because He wanted man to love God. Love must be freely given; it must therefore be possible to choose not to give it. There can be no such thing as love in the absence of free will. Love is meaningless without free will. God created man with free will; free will allowed the lie to tempt, and the decision to be made favoring the lie rather than the Truth. When Pontius Pilot asked the famous question “What is truth?” he authored the greatest irony in all of human history, for the ultimate center of all Truth was standing right in front of him. He couldn’t recognize the real Truth because of his elite, super-sophisticated worldliness and self-assumed wisdom. Satan is a liar and a murderer, and Satan rules the world. You are called to relentlessly seek the Truth, in spite of all the lies around you. You must always seek the Truth. When you find Him, grab onto Him and never let go. Take Him into your bosom forever, never to be apart from Him. No matter what. The World is not wise. The Truth is wise. Seek the Truth; find the Way; live the Life. Please God, and live forever.
Return to Web Site Log (Blog) page Return to HOME PAGE Build/Host/Maintain Your Own Personal Website using SBI! (Advertisement) CommentsDate: Tue Dec 01 20:10:11 2009
Vic, Are you not being just a little bit cavalier in your ABSOLUTE dismissal of each of these dangers? The population problem is getting worse, not better, over time. Sooner or later we will have to contend with an over-populated and increasingly polluted planet and an exhaustion of available resources. Our way of living is just not sustainable.
Ben Date: Wed Dec 02 06:15:59 2009
Ben: No. Obviously, you have not read the Population Problem Hoax page yet, or you would know that our population problem is just another global consensual fraud. It is still invoked by politicians as an excuse for spending money we don’t’ have on something we don’t need. Our way of living is perfectly sustainable. Again, see the Eco-Nazi Front page; we are not running out of resources, and the planet is not dieing. Good heavens. The only thing in this whole, giant, multi-fraud contentious issue that is not sustainable is spending money we don’t have, and indeed that does not even exist yet, on major programs that are bogus and not needed. If my wife ran our house like that, we would have been out on the street long ago. You don’t spend money you don’t have on things you don’t need. You have to be more practical, Ben, and that means facing reality. That means real reality, not a purposeful fraud, no matter how much “scientific” consensus it enjoys. I have even heard astronauts invoke the bogus population problem as a reason to explore space to find a planet to colonize, before the earth dies. This is comic book stuff. This time, with the global warming scam, I’m hoping things might change, because Rush Limbaugh’s fire is lit on the subject, and he has a huge and growing following. I just hope he looks more closely at all the other ongoing scientific frauds and gets just as fired up over them, too. Lots of us listen to him, and his words are having a major impact on a lot of people. In the meantime, Ben – get real. Regards, Vic Date: Mon Dec 07 15:37:22 2009
Dear Mr. Biorseth, I appreciate your response to my article and the forwarding (through Tom) of your article on "Global Consensual Fraud." It seems we may have a great deal in common. Your analysis is very on target and the presentation of the research reflects your confidence and expertise. I am an admirer of John Polkingorne; perhaps you could share your views on his work? If am presently not a participant in the global internet process. My sister is sending this message to you under her e-mail address. Thank you for your attention to my inquiry and your patience in the nature of my response. Andrew J. Maggard Date: Mon Dec 07 15:40:00 2009
Andrew: Thank you; however, any confidence not withstanding, I am certainly no great scholar, and had not heard of Fr. Polkingdorne before this. Some very quick research showed that we are on parallel missions, although he is, indeed, a great scholar. I am just an ordinary guy who never even finished his degree work, but who still seeks the truth in ordinary things, having encountered and embraced the ultimate Truth that is at the center of it all. It looks like Fr. Polkingdorne is seeking some sort of reconciliation between theological science and material science, and doing it well. From my point of view, it is a shame that the two sciences were split apart from their parent science of philosophy – the search for truth – in the great Heresy of Modernism resulting in the preoccupation and fixation of man with the world and worldliness. From my admittedly limited reading on him, Fr. Polkingdorne is trying to pull the two sciences back together. If that is true, then may God bless him and his work. For my part, recognizing my limited intellect and scholarship, it seems to have become my duty, sort of, to attack untruth more than to defend truth, which seems to be the way my website has been developing over the years. I write almost as therapy, or to fulfill some psychological need to “set the record straight” wherever it seems to be wrong, and particularly where it seems to be purposely wrong, which is a whole lot of places today. Fortunately for me, simple common sense, practicality and critical thinking are usually all that are required to identify an obviously fraudulent theory. Regards, Vic Post-Script - Mon Dec 14 06:05:16 2009 Date: Wed Dec 16 17:41:04 2009
Victor, Thank you for your response via my sister's email. I found your initial response unusual in its clarity and foresight. With a title of, "Thinking Catholic Strategic Center," I had to inquire. Yes, I find myself attacking the windmills of untruth with fervor. While I possess only a rudimentary formal education, life's experiences have provided me with what Hemingway called a "built in bull shit detector." I wield my sword without the benefit of the digital revolution. A Don Quixote with tried and true but limited weapons. Yes, like you, I find writing a valued therapy. Rather than standing on a soap box shouting to an unconcerned world, I simply write and see solace in the written word. I have asked my sister, Ida, to access your website and provide me with items that she believes would be of interest. My sister and I often begin conversations simultaneously with the same words and thoughts. The oft used term, "soul mate," falls short of the union that my sister and I possess. Thus, "Ida, send me something that I would appreciate." Thank you again. If you are so inclined, tell me more about yourself; your work and the website that you have crafted. I leave you with a quote of Jefferson, "There is not a truth existing which I fear or wish unknown to the whole world." With regards, Andy Date: Wed Dec 16 19:03:23 2009
Andy: The best description of me and my work, I suppose, would be found in the About Your Host page, which is a brief biography and faith journey. And the best description of my site would be found in the website Home Page. Perhaps Ida may forward them to you, however she is doing that. It appears that we are kindred spirits; writing is indeed therapeutic, for us as individuals. But the deeper frustration we feel that drives us to write is the recognition of wrong, or of untruth. I know that the source of my anxiety about all of these subjects is the knowledge that error and untruth is so widespread and so unrecognized by so many. Not only in America but in the world. Untruth, eventually, destroys not only free commerce, not only wealth, not only liberty, not only order, not only human lives, but souls. The last thing anyone ever thinks of is the one most important. Our culture, our nation and our world are becoming disgraceful before God. If you truly despise untruth, Andy, and if you love to write, then publish your writing here, where others will see it and be moved by it, one way or another. Let your words live on and make a difference in someone else’s world as well as yours and Ida’s and mine. Ask your sister to copy-and-paste your words into the Submit an Article page and they will be published. Maybe they’ll do some good somewhere in the world. Warmest regards to you and to Ida, Vic Date: Thu Feb 04 19:57:42 2010
Vic, You seem to think there is no truth at all to any of the dangers you so quickly and easily poo-poo. The implication is that unrestrained capitalism and consumption is the answer to everything, and that unrestrained capitalism and consumption pose no real danger or threat to the future of man or the environment. There has to be some compromise here. Ben Date: Fri Feb 05 06:07:29 2010
Ben: There is no such thing as unrestrained capitalism and consumption. The largest, most effective, natural and most proper restraint involves free market competition, common sense, and a proper sense of morality. None of these can be supplied by government. Let us consider only the worldly implications. At the individual level, unrestrained consumption, as in gluttony, produces bad health, at least, or even death. At the business level, unrestrained production and/or consumption will put you out of business. At the national level, unrestrained taxing and spending – and taxing and spending is the only thing government can do – leads to national bankruptcy and economic collapse. Regarding the socio-economic restraint of morality, it is clear that, within the American population, consisting as overwhelmingly as it does of practicing Christians and Jews, a sense of proper stewardship fits right in with their moral code. It is equally clear that our current sitting government does not even recognize let alone follow our American morality, and their set of moral norms, where they exist at all, may only be described as pagan. They don’t give a damn about us or about our environment. It is only a propaganda – disinformation tool for them; virtually everything they say about it is a flagrant lie. Regards, Vic Please note the language and tone already established in this Website. This is not the place to stack up vulgar one-liners and crude rejoinders. While you may support, oppose or introduce any position or argument, your comments must meet our standards of logical rigor and of civil discourse. We will not participate in trading insults, and we will not tolerate participants trading insults with each other. Participants should not be thin-skinned or over sensitive to criticism, but should be prepared to defend their arguments when challenged. If you don’t really have a coherent argument or counter-argument of your own, sit down and don’t embarrass yourself. If you have something serious to contribute to the conversation, please keep it civil. We apologize to religious conservative thinkers for the need to even say these things.
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