Anti Cafeteria Catholic Forum

(This anti cafeteria Catholic forum page exists as a separate repository for remarks pertaining to the pages found at the various Cafeteria Catholic navigation button links found in the left margin of this site.)

By Vic Biorseth at Thinking Catholic Strategic Center -
http://www.Thinking-Catholic-Strategic-Center.com
Thursday May 31, 2007

I have been through some trials in my life; physical, mental and spiritual. But few things have vexed me more than heterodoxy under the guise of Catholicism in supposedly "official" Catholic teaching, by faculty and in an institution under the direct control of a real live Roman Catholic bishop. Much of what I experienced in that regard is laid out in this website. Now that a “public” response has come in with vague reference to more than one of the issues and more than one of the pages, it looks appropriate to put a separate anti cafeteria Catholic forum page out here for any comments for all of the Cafeteria Catholic navigation button pages.

For the record, yes, I can document everything I’ve said on these issues. If I couldn’t back my words up, I wouldn’t have said them. If I had not kept all the texts, handouts, course material, emails and correspondence, and still said some of the things I’ve said, I might be open to legal charges of slander and/or libel. Since what I’ve said is true, I stand by my own words.

Personally, I worry more about ecclesial law here than civil law. For charges relating to the potentially mortal sins of detraction, calumny and scandal are, to me, more dangerous to my immortal soul than any civil remedies may be to my worldly well being. But, three points on that: One, the things I talk about herein really did happen. Two, someone has to tell the people. And Three, the fact that these things even occurred already is, in and of itself, a terrible scandal. And if it is anywhere near as widespread as I conjecture, then it is a monumental scandal, of epic proportions, crying out to Heaven to be addressed.

Prayer and reflection lead to the concussion that Catholics have a right to know about these matters, and to be forewarned about what’s been going on here. So, I placed myself at risk, drew my rhetorical sword and stepped forward. So be it. May the Lord sustain me.

Until now, all responses have been in private, not public. My fellow students who were “conservative,” i.e., orthodox in their Catholic faith lent quiet support at the time, but did not do battle with the heterodox teachers; some dropped out, and some just kept quiet and kept their heads down. I don’t blame them. Even they represented a minority among the students. Even today, all responses – no exceptions - to these pages are from conservative, shocked Catholics, but they all give me support through the private response area rather than the public venue. Until now.

And, yes, to all who inquired, I have complained to “higher” authorities at multiple levels. Responses range from indefinitely pending to non-existent. So I’ve gone public with it. The people need to know.

So, here it all is, out in the open. Refute it if you can.

Date: Thu May 31 2007 2:57 PM EST
From: Stephen
Email: stephen_dees@yahoo.com
Subject: Dissident agenda and Cafeteria Catholic
Comment:

I have at this point waded through about a third of the "Cafeteria Catholic" statements and just got through the first read of dissident agenda.

I agree, [with the] majority [of] your concerns and your extensive experience of the "gerrymandering" of the "catholic" agenda.

There are/is a significant, evidently, part of the followers who are attempting to "protestantize" the catholic process.

Yes Vic, it comes down to something just that simple and yet distressing.

Consider your observations and concerns: 1.Marital relations for priests 2.female priests 3.radical non-sanctioned interpretations of both the catechisms and basic tenets of what Catholicism is all about.

I believe I have captured the gravemen of your commentary.

Yes, there is a diminishing number of "good" priests, and yes, they have obviously lowered the standards and reduced the "vetting" process.

I have felt for some time that they, the central church, continue their heavy recruiting from Western and Eastern Europe, where the faith is stronger and combine that with an American English language school and send them over here. This an some selective retirement of some of the College of Cardinal and selective Bishop butt kicking is needed.

It would not bother me to have a Lithuanian or Polish or Czech priest. I lived over there for a while, they are a little better than the lax American approach.

In all honesty, I have been contemplating the benefits of getting some of the Orthodox priests to come over and demonstrate some of the finer points of priesthood. Can't hurt what is going on now sort of misses the mark severely.

A lot of them remind me more of managers of a Savings and Loan than they do as priests. But then there is a lot of pressure on them from the financial side. Very hard to keep a parish open when the collection box is empty.

They get themselves involved in things which are simply too expensive and beyond the financial ability of the congregation and in some time the willingness of the congregation to support.

The current Americanization has also led to some serious quality and leadership issues.

Going to the European well eliminates the reliance on the sources which are currently turning out damaged goods. "Ditto" on the pastoral and ministerial areas as well.

Some of the things which you relate, if true, and I have no reason to doubt it, are not only insulting and wrong, they represent unpardonable behavior.

Consider what the Pope recently remarked concerning both abortion and people who countenanced such conduct. They excommunicated themselves.

That is not a horrendously bad thing, and should not be in the eyes of the infractors (sic). The only reason it would bug either you or me is because we follow. They don't, let them "go next door".

They willfully and voluntarily selected, without duress, their course of action. They did so without regard to the basic tenets of the church. Let them be gone!

If they won't go voluntarily, then that is part of the job of being an usher. And if it gets really bad, there is the Swiss Guard. I am not kidding there is historical precedent in this course of conduct.

I mean it simply says "time to go somewhere else". It also conveys the message "Just don't do that here, that is not what we are about".

How can it be otherwise? Either you do or don't adhere, it is just that "cut and dried".

If we could all formulate our own doctrine and call it catholic look at the mess it would create. I am talking product consistency.

It is apparent that something is very wrong in the American Administration of the Roman Catholic Church.

Not to provide trite advice which is meaningless in the larger context and severity of the problem, I offer the following as a suggested course of action.

Contact, in writing, the office of the Holy See in D.C.. It is about the closest to the Vatican you can get here in the states.

Seek out, if you can find them, other Catholics, of power and influence, who can assist in paving your way.

If I were you, and I am most certainly not, I would copy them with every syllable which you have shared on this site. You have no idea how powerful what you have written is.

Why? The log, itself, represents a serious set of occurrences. Serious enough for a valid catholic to seek counsel from the church as to what to do in the face of such ridiculous and wild behavior.

I could not possibly represent your personal history, to any one, better than you. You are in the very best position to call the play and tell them how the thing played out.

Your series is impressive, deep, specific, catastrophic, disgusting, and is filled with so many particulars, it demands serious prompt attention.

I have read parts of it three times and find myself having to go back and read some of it just to get a good handle on how severe and specific it is.

I respect your ability to remain peaceable in the process. I would have exchanged words and blows as some of that stuff went down.

So, as you are obviously the "best catholic" "at the scene of the crime" I, of course, humbly nominate you, to "take to the mattresses" on this with the powers that be.

If I were you I would plan on a trip to Rome. Whether you plan it or not that is where it will wind up being resolved. I suggest, as you are motivated, that you personal advocacy is appropriate.

By the way, some, but in absolutely no way, all, of the things which you have written about, I have seen myself.

My reaction was a simple statement to them of "Yeah, the Lutherans are like that maybe you should go over there and hook up with that church". Another is the Episcopalians are doing that, there church is located on XYZ street.

Now, I mention some thing which is in my opinion just a serious, and that is that there currently exists an increased emphasis politically and industrially to cause damage to Catholics and Catholicism in an intentional manner.

That has always been a problem in the Southern Part of the United States, however now it is extending into the national government arena and is also reflected in some of the court issues as well.

A simple statement of "that is not the way we are supposed to do it, if you want to do that, go there", and most importantly "don't track that in here and clean the carpet before you go."

Yeah, a comparison of positions is sort of like, "I have the seen the animal signs", and you have "confronted the beast" directly.

By the way, I tried dealing with the Holy See some time back. It was in reference to the anti-Catholic movement and repression I mentioned. You will find them courteous but generally ineffective. Hence my advice to plan to go to Rome. Rome has the written history of how to handle the problem.

I also see wisdom in getting some form of "advertising" out on your experiences.

Some way to get other parishioners, and other assistive ministerial personnel to read, contemplate, and perhaps, add to your rather exhaustive collection of irregularities and abuses.

By that, I mean to communicate, that many of the issues which you are presenting, including the conduct in a Seminary setting has to have been experienced by others of like perspective.

I would like to know what your co-attendees in these various settings had to say, what their reactions were, and if at all possible get them to add their wood to your fire.

For absolutely selfish reasons, I would like to see their commentary made on your blog. How about that, out there where everyone can read it, comment, contemplate and constructively move to correct the problem.

But perhaps that was your intentions initially.

Unless there is corroboration and delineation of like nature, it looks like a single aberrant situation. Allowing a less than satisfactory reaction of "whoops!".

If you can demonstrate the intent as you allude to, and state in your various logs, that is where the power to demand demonstrative reaction and correction would occur.

In terms of encouragement, the Vatican has been waiting for some time for an opportunity to become involved in re-catholicizing the American section of the Roman Catholic Church.

They have historically been confronted by the Cardinals and Bishops with a "stay out of it" attitude.

By letters, documents and experiences such as yours, especially that which is directly provided to the office of the Holy See, might very well be the key which unlocks the door.

I have seen in Massachusetts, some of the things to which you refer. It is indeed time for a flanking maneuver.

You are describing the death throes of the church in the United States.

It is being orchestrated by the hierarchy here.

Why, is completely understandable. They fear loss of parishioners but most importantly loss of the monetary contributions which come from them.

Some of the most Liberal Catholics are also the most wealthy. They are sponsoring a forced break-away. "Please Mr. Custer, I don't wanna go!" is my response!

The church has had periods like this previously. It was even worse during the Reformation period.

Don't get me wrong. I also agree that in the past, various people have, and did severely, and for an extended period, misuse their power and thus the church reaped the whirlwind. That is what comes from the wealth being the sole influence on the church.

But this time, especially when other denominations are out there, like Lutheran, Methodist or what have you, I fail to see why they, these anti-Catholics protagonists, should not leave and find the "menu" which suits their "palette" rather than force myself and obviously yourself to change our "diet".

Be prepared for your actions to take some time, but Vic, look how far you have come already. You experienced it, you have documented it, now get the corroboration where in your own self-analytical way, you can detect it needs bolstering and carry the ball Vic.

Who better, than You?

Date: Fri June 1, 2007 7:00 AM EST
From: Vic Biorseth
Subject: Cafeteria Catholicism
Comment:

Stephen:

Right you are. There is a proper name for Western culture Christians who do not recognize papal authority or the authority of Rome, and that proper name is, of course, Protestant. The problem for most Catholics who fall into this category is their own invincible ignorance of what they have become. Whether these still practicing members are in a spiritually better place than all the so-called lapsed Catholics who just dropped out, the Lord will judge.

At the other extreme, we have the various schismatic cults such as the Lefebvre-ites who went so far as to form separate churches in the interest of maintaining liturgical and linguistic Catholic tradition, which I addressed (perhaps too lightly) in the American Bishop’s Teaching article and other articles in this site, which are all listed and linked in the American Thinker – All Articles page.

But the problem of increasing priest numbers is America is not going to be solved by having European or other foreign bishops outsource their priests to America. First of all, most of Europe, excluding certain Eastern Europe nations such as Poland and Lithuania, is considerably worse off than America regarding proper adherence to Catholicism or any form of Christianity, or to Judaism. Western Europe, with France in the lead, has been increasing in radical anti-clericalism and general anti-belief ever since the French Revolution. If you even find a regularly practicing Catholic in, say, France or Germany or Italy today, you will be more likely to have found yourself a cafeteria Catholic than if your subject were an American.

The Church is only increasing priest numbers by leaps and bounds in Africa, and in parts of South America. But even that will not solve our national priest shortage problem, because no bishop trains his priests in his seminary and ordains him in order to send him to some other diocese. The new priest “belongs” to his bishop. That’s why the eight or so American dioceses that are cranking out large numbers of American priests are not going to solve our national problems. All those new priests are going to remain serving in those dioceses in which they were ordained.

We have one Pastor here for four Churches; one “parent” parish containing three smaller ethnic “parishes” all contained within the parish boundaries of the parent parish. Our Pastor makes heavy use of retired priests, priest-scholars (professors) from University of Dayton, and visiting priests who are here long enough to get their masters or doctorates in whatever at U of D. These priests, as they are available, take turns with our Pastor saying Mass at our four beloved parishes.

We have had two such student priests from Africa stay with us and say Mass for us long enough to finish their studies, but then, they went back to their own bishops in their original dioceses, either to teach other priests, or to move into ministry themselves. We had one from the diocese of Peoria, but now he’s gone too. These are all excellent, very motivated, spiritual priests, but they serve at the pleasure of their bishops, and we can’t get them. You can’t even hire a retired priest from somewhere and have him come to your parish without your diocesan bishop’s prior approval. We have tried. Heterodox bishops will not grant such approval, because they have another game plan.

I’m on our parish council, and I can tell you that our parish has no money problem; in fact, we’re doing great, financially. The only problem we have has to do with the relentlessly increasing priest shortage in this relentlessly heterodox archdiocese.

We will continue to have an increasing priest shortage problem so long as we have a heterodox teaching problem, and we will continue to have a heterodox teaching problem so long as we have a heterodox bishop problem. The only path to a growing and vibrant priesthood is paved with Catholic orthodoxy.

Our growing priest shortage problem here in America is the same as the problem in most of Europe, the original seat of Western Civilization, and it is, precisely, a heterodox Catholic bishop problem, pure and simple. That is my contention. Our eight orthodox dioceses prove it.

Regards,

Vic

References:

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